Business delima-want to charge for pics where company thinks differently

[Dave O'Brien]

I was contacted by the FBO who allows me ramp access for my shots. They want to use some of my Antonov pics for a NBAA booth display to promote their business. I quoted them a fee of $250 for limited business use as it wouldn't be a one time usage.

I received a call from their CS mgr who seems to think I should "give" them the shots because w/out them bringing me out there, these shots wouldn't be possible. True, but like I explained to her, if they were to hire a photographer to get these shots, it would probably cost a lot more, and seeing this aircraft isn't a common visitor here it's not like they can just hire someone to take them or walk out with their own camera.

My friend who is/was in charge of the ramp has told me there was never any strings attached. What I do for my friend, and others who he's asked me for is a break on hockey equipment seeing I work for Bauer and don't play that's easy. I give them prints for free when ever they ask and have a little book of the military transits for their lobby. He's allowed me to put prints in their lobby to sell and they didn't ask to receive any cut, even though their accounting department thought otherwise when he bought one.... I've offered to sell them prints direct so they can ask what ever they want but they don't want to do that either.

Am I out of line here asking for this? At some point I need to cut off the free bees and start trying to make some money, but at the same point I don't want to cut off the hand that feeds me. When I tried doing a calendar for them, one lady in the FBO made such a fuss because it was "bad publicity" showing they allow people to walk around and take pictures their owner axed the idea of them giving them away. They just had me out on the ramp for when the RAF came in and I don't want to screw other visits either

I can't be the only one who's had this issue, I would appreciate any advise as I don't want to ruin this relationship!

[André]

I can't be the only one who's had this issue, I would appreciate any advise as I don't want to ruin this relationship!

Maybe you could show them the prices you paid for your equipment during the past years ?

It might help them understand that $250 for a photo with business use is a bargain and won't break even on the costs and efforts you have put in it.

Most non photographers hardly know how much money has to be invested before decent photo's appear.

[Dave O'Brien]

thanks Andre', I was going to stop and and give them the RAF shots I took, this might be a good time to explain my side if they need to hear it.

 

[KevinJackson]

$250 is more than reasonable. They know you want the access they can give you and are using that to get a free lunch.

I personally think you've been more than generous up to now but this is where you either get serious or just let them walk over you. Write out a carefully worded licence to use the image and an invoice. They run a business and you'll earn more respect from them by treating it like your business. If they refuse to pay then politely tell them that they cannot use the image and unless they are a bunch of children after revenge it shouldn't hurt your current relationship.

It's like them having a customer park his plane and refuse to pay the full fee, saying 'well I could have gone somewhere else. you should be honored I landed here!'

If you want to come across professionally then walk away if they don't want to pay. Simple.

[Andyman]

Have you thought about getting a local photographer to give you a quote of what he would have charged to come out and shoot the Antonov  including the limited bisuness usage of the image and give that quote to the FBO for comparison?

[garphoto.com]

They're in business, have them run their proposal by their lawyer. I assure you they will have second thoughts and of course, you'll never be allowed on the ramp again. Or you can simply say, what's in it for me? Your equipment is long paid for, but they are a business and they need your image to increase their business profile. It would seem fitting that they should compensate you for their good fortune that you were there to photograph the aircraft. The other alternative is to tell them no and find another shooting spot.

[Dave O'Brien]

thanks for the insight guys, they had the marketing department call me saying the owner was a little piffed because he was under the assumption that they would get the free lunch for the access. I explained myself to this guy who passed it on to the owner. He said my price was more than reasonable and he really like the photo as it was exactly what he was looking for.

I decided to stop into the FBO and talked to the owner, they removed my little photo album I leave for people to thumb through They consider that free advertising...., I considered more like a magazine for people who are waiting. I explained how much my equipment cost and what the going rate was and thought I was more than being fair with the quote.

The agency will get back to me if they want the shot, who knows if I'll keep my access or not. But I felt like I had to shut up or walk like Kevin mentioned. If they don't get over it so be it. I guess it's part of the business....

[LAshooter]

I have a bit of a different take on this that I'm sure will be unpopular with some. I would have gone ahead and given them a one time free bee as a thank you for the access. I'd have made it clear that I would also be happy to supply photos in the future at a competitive rate. The owner is likely taking advantage in this situation, but this angle would have set an understanding for the future and you'd have only been out one sale in exchange for past and future access.  He'd have no excuse for misunderstanding in the future. This opinion is of course coming from someone who doesn't have to charge to earn a living.  Another take is that you could have many other opportunities to sell material you shoot at this venue to other publishers/businesses. It would be a shame to lose a good source of potential sales down the road over one opportunity.

Now I will run for cover.........  

[JClark]

With no explicit agreement for goods and services rendered by both sides, there was never anything business-like in the whole situation.

Given the FBO owner's reaction to being charged for the photo, I think the only way to secure future (free) access to the ramp would be free photos - now and later.  Furthering LA's point (not that I necessarily agree), the owner perhaps is thinking of the risk he incurred by allowing non-essential personnel on the ramp.  That access, seemingly, was at least equal to any price being asked for usage of the photo. 

Dave, now is the time to start business relationship with this FBO.  Agree on terms of ramp access, advertising, and featured placement of your photos in the FBO.  What is it worth to you to get the images from a normally off-limits area and generate other potential sales?  Ask for exclusivity.   Provide the price for your services and goods.  The services they provide may or may not be worth something to you.  If their service is of value, you can reduce your prices or work some kind of a barter.  Then both sides negotiate to either reach an agreement or a decision to discontinue the business relationship.

[Dave O'Brien]

ahh, just as I thought I was feeling good about my situation, you guys bring up the way I felt in the beginning. 

[aerophoto]

Give it for free and they will forever expect it for free When I was just starting I had a company that wanted to use my shot They said how much I said 50$ I felt the exposure would help me get started. Well the company said that was not fair because the other photographers were getting 300$ for the shot 1 time use so I got 300$  Before you give away think about the future once you give away your talent then they will tell 10 friends who will tell 10 friends and so on then we all suffer. Heck they will give you access againe with ligitimate work posted or on the wall or what ever they do with it You will be the one they come to again. It is a mater of respect for you and what you do.


Bill

[thenewarea51]

Are you in this to make a buck or are you doing it because you love aviation? I can tell you since I have the displeasure of managing an FBO, everytime they let you on their ramp, the FBO becomes liable. I think the manager see's this as " you scratch my back and I scratch yours " and for better or worse this is how most of the aviation world works. Giving them this photo may open the doors to other gigs that will pay. It's your choice, but you have to ask yourself if it's worth being banned from going on their ramp again for $300 bucks. What gives me more satisfaction over money, is credit. I would be happy if my name was put on the picture somewhere and they pass out a few of my business cards if people ask. If there is one thing I've learned working my whole in aviation, "never burn your bridges" The aviation community is a small one and they love to talk.


Franz

[checksixx]

Every time I've had special access to aviation type businesses, I've granted them free usage of any of the photo's I've taken.  However, I've also stated that they don't have any exclusive right to them and anyone wishing prints or files would have to be directed to me to purchase them.  Its a good way to make everyone happy in my opinion.  Keeps the door open and they have always been happy to send business my way.

[GeoffS]

Every time I've had special access to aviation type businesses, I've granted them free usage of any of the photo's I've taken.  However, I've also stated that they don't have any exclusive right to them and anyone wishing prints or files would have to be directed to me to purchase them.

The key phrases here are "special access" and "they don't have any exclusive right(s)"; they seem like a reasonable trade-off pair.

I also follow the policy of the last couple of posters in an effort to maintain a good working relationship with every airport I visit.  They have done me a favor by allowing me to get a photo that I wouldn't have otherwise gotten, and I reciprocate by helping them out where I can.  I'm in a little different position, because almost all my work is editorial, so continuing access is key to being effective.

Cheers,

Geoff S.

[pleverington]

Dave--250 dollars is not a lot to charge---but neither is it a lot to make. You never should have asked for the dough. Let them have whatever they want on a limited one time basis if your getting ramp access. Someone is really sticking their neck out for you to give you that. If they want more than one time occasional use, then I'm sure they would understand fees for that. This should be good old business --you help me --I help you. Help them out, and stay low profile, and you'll get your access--without it, what kind of stuff can you get???  And since your already the official--unofficial--"airport photographer" it seems, you probably will get the nod while others are behind the fence.

I print with my 9900 and the costs are really negligible--even for the canvas prints I hand out every year. That keeps things going and is very much appreciated. Two to three dollars a print for archival stuff even--this doesn't break anyone's bank. Make your money off the general public by selling them the great shots one can only get because they have access. Take care of those who take care of you and above all else communicate with them and see how they feel--don't go into any of this with a rigid thinking attitude of steadfast line in the sand. Consider well how they look at it. Sometimes easing up in the throttle will get them to do the same and you might get offered the money voluntarily. Talk to them openly and sincerely. At this point if they are having attitude changes you might want to apologize and explain why you wanted you see some at least token payment but make it clear you don't want to make a big deal about it. I mean where are you going to be without ramp access??  Good luck to ya. Let us know what happens if you would.

Paul